历史与人物going-medieval.com
我向你保证，中世纪人是洗澡的
I assure you, medieval people bathed (2019)
2019 — 2022，它一次次回到首页
黑点是上首页（≥ 50 分）的那次投稿，空心点是没冲上去的投稿，点越大分数越高。
导读
一篇历史博客文章反驳“中世纪人不洗澡”的刻板印象，讨论中世纪欧洲的洗浴习惯、公共浴场和肥皂使用等问题，并批评流行历史叙述中的偏见。文章语气轻松甚至带点火气，评论区则补充了北欧、东欧、印度等地的洗浴传统与史实争议。
为什么经久不衰：它把被反复传播的“黑暗时代脏污”印象拆开来看，提醒人们卫生观念随时代和地区而变，今天读仍能纠正常识化误解。
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用词源和东欧、旧礼仪派的生活经验说明洗浴传统悠久且普遍。
古诺尔斯语中星期六 laugardagr 字面意思是“洗浴日”。这种习俗在东欧乡村仍存，许多人每周六（或像我家周日）去桑拿/巴尼亚。20世纪前，东欧尤其俄罗斯大部分地区仍像中世纪那样生活：95%的人是封建地产上的农奴，住传统木屋，但洗浴文化很普遍，到处有桑拿，村庄多靠近河流。桑拿也是分娩场所。我很难相信俄罗斯农民几个世纪生活方式相同，却最近才开始洗澡。我家来自旧礼仪派，17世纪拒绝教会改革后躲入泰加林，保留古老习俗，洗浴文化很精细：头、身体、脚各有毛巾和水桶。买不起桑拿的村民会在屋内大炉子里洗澡；我母亲小时候在旧礼仪派村庄就这样洗过。
kgeist查看英文原文
The Old Norse word for Saturday, laugardagr, literally means "washing day". This custom still survives here in countryside Eastern Europe where many people routinely go to sauna (banya) every Saturday (or Sunday like my family). Before the 20th century, a lot of Eastern Europe (especially Russia) still lived like they lived in the middle ages: 95% of the country were serfs on feudal property living in traditional wooden houses with no modern benefits of civilization, and the bathing culture was pervasive: there were saunas (banyas) everywhere, and most villages were close to a river so water access was not a problem. Saunas were also a place where people gave birth. I find it hard to believe that Russian peasants were living the same lifestyle for centuries and only recently decided to start bathing. My family comes from Old Believers, a religous group which rejected church reforms of the 1600's and went into hiding in taiga, they preserved pretty ancient customs and their bathing culture was pretty intricate: for example, there always must be a separate towel/bucket of water for head, body, feet - this wouldn't have developed without a rich bathing culture before. Those villagers who could not afford their own sauna bathed in... ovens (inside the house). It's one of the older customs still preserved in some places. The traditional oven was pretty large and a whole person could fit in it. My mother was bathed like that when she was a child in their Old Believer village. However, I don't know if this was specific to Eastern/Northern Europe or common in Western Europe, too. I remember reading that due to overpopulation and deforestation it was harder for West Europeans to have frequent bathing every week. But here, population wasn't dense and forests were abundant.
印度有严格的日常沐浴传统，反驳“古代人不洗澡”的西方中心叙事。
有趣的是，西方历史会扭曲世界其他地方的历史。我听到西方孩子说古代没人洗澡。作为印度人，几乎每人每天至少洗两次澡，实际上是义务。直到近代还流行：外出回家洗腿；吃饭前洗手、脸、腿；性交后洗全身；进别人家前洗腿；进任何家门前把鞋留在门外；日出前和日落前在河、湖或家中水池里洗全身。每周用芝麻油按摩，用绿豆粉搓身，晒太阳几分钟后用手搓掉，再洗热水澡。洗发用 kunkudukai 和 shikakai 两种草药，直接使用；kunkudukai 压碎兑水抹头会起泡。我直到2005年每周日都这样洗头，家里禁用洗发水，材料也很便宜。
kumarvvr查看英文原文
Its funny that western history distorts the history of the rest of the world. I hear western kids saying no one used to bathe in the ancient times. As an Indian, it was practically mandatory for each and every individual to take a bath at-least two times a day. Additionally the following customs were very prevalent till recent times. 1. Washing legs after coming home from outside. 2. Washing hands, face and legs before sitting to eat food. 3. Washing whole body after sex. 4. Washing legs before entering others homes. 5. Leaving footwear outside the *gate* of any home before entering it. 6. A full bath in a river / lake / house tank *before* sunrise and once *before* sunset. Also, body was supposed to be massaged with oil of sesame seeds (once a week), and greengram flour was rubbed on every part of the body. After sitting in the sun like this for a few minutes, the flour was scrubbed off by hand, and then a hot water bath taken. For shampoo, two traditional herbs are recommended. Kunkudukai and shikakai. Both are used as it is without any processing. Kunkudukai would be crushed and mixed with water to form a liquid and then applied on head. Amazingly, it would form a lather when rubbed on the head. I remember doing this type of head bath every sunday, until about 2005. Any shampoo was forbidden in our home. The items were dead cheap too. [Edit] Kinkudukai is also called soapnut. https://www.stylecraze.com/articles/benefits-of-soapnuts-for-skin-hair-and-health/ The above site tends to exaggerate the benifits a bit, but it is believed that kunkudukai inhibhits dandruff and is anti-fungal and anti-bacterial. By personal experience, it tastes absolutely vomit inducing bitter and will burn your eyes to high hell if as much as a diluted drop enters it. Its a natural, safe and environmentally friendly way of taking a head bath.
批评文章语气自鸣得意，且“肥皂是中世纪发明”的说法不准确，肥皂更早已知并传入。
唉，我不喜欢流行历史用这种自作聪明的腔调，而且还不怎么准确。文章说“肥皂是中世纪他妈的发明……罗马人没有肥皂，只用油洗”。那阿勒颇肥皂呢？我以为罗马人知道它，维基也说一世纪罗马人知道肥皂，Zosimos 在约300年描述了肥皂和制皂。作者又说肥皂“从东方传入……但很快流行”，这跟“中世纪发明”矛盾。它不是中世纪发明，而是被采用的技术。如果你要痛斥历史不准确，那还有多少不准确？看起来力气都花在骂想象中的敌人，而不是写作上。
simonsarris查看英文原文
ughh I dislike when pop history takes this smarmy tone and is also not particularly accurate. > In fact soap is a motherfucking medieval invention. Yes. It is. The Romans – whomst I don’t see a bunch of basics going around accusing of being filthy – did not, in fact have soap, in contrast. They usually washed using oil. Medieval people? Oh you better believe that they had soap. Wait a minute, what about Aleppo soap? I thought the Romans knew of it and Wikipedia alleges the same in their article: > Although it has been claimed that soap-making was introduced to the West from the Levant after the First Crusades, in fact, soap was known to the Romans in the first century AD and Zosimos of Panopolis described soap and soapmaking in c. 300 AD. Citation: https://www.google.com/books/edition/A_History_of_Greek_Fire_and_Gunpowder/fNZBSqd2cToC?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA307&printsec=frontcover Then the OP author goes on to say: > It was first introduced from the East, like most good stuff was at the time, but it took off rather quickly. This contradicts their claim that soap was a medieval invention! It wasn't a medieval invention. It was adopted technology. That's not a big deal I guess, but if you're going to make a rant about historical accuracies, what else isn't exactly accurate here? It seems the effort is put into the berating imaginary enemies rather than the writing.
承认污名化不对，但提醒不要矫枉过正：中世纪卫生仍不如今日或部分其他时期。
“定期”洗，但不如今人频繁；而且即便如此，也不适用于近代早期的征服者，因为美洲原住民都觉得白人脏得难以忍受。互联网似乎放大了某种唱反调倾向，走得太远。中世纪欧洲人不是一群无知、肮脏的农民，但仍比你我更无知，也可能更脏。早期中世纪西欧不是完全没有成就的“黑暗时代”，但很多方面不如罗马帝国鼎盛期或之后的近代早期，甚至不如中世纪晚期。
philwelch查看英文原文
"Regularly", but not as frequently as we do now, and to whatever extent this was true, it certainly didn't extend to conquistadors in the early modern period because American Indians all considered white people intolerably dirty by their standards. The Internet seems to have amplified a certain contrarian tendency that goes too far. While it's true that the people of medieval Europe were not just a bunch of ignorant, filthy peasants, they were still more ignorant and probably more dirty than you and I are at the moment. While the early middle ages in western Europe were not "dark ages" completely bereft of human accomplishment, they were by many measures crappier than either the heyday of the Roman empire or the early modern era that would follow (or indeed even the late Middle Ages).
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