历史与人物en.wikipedia.org
亚特兰特罗帕计划
Atlantropa
2014 — 2019，它一次次回到首页
黑点是上首页（≥ 50 分）的那次投稿，空心点是没冲上去的投稿，点越大分数越高。
导读
Atlantropa 是德国建筑师赫尔曼·瑟格尔在20世纪20年代提出的巨型工程构想：在直布罗陀海峡等地筑坝，降低地中海海平面，造出连接欧洲与非洲的新陆地并提供水电。它从未动工，却成为乌托邦式大工程、殖民式地球改造及其生态与地缘风险的经典案例。
为什么经久不衰：它把改造地球的雄心和生态、地缘政治上的盲点同时放大，是讨论气候工程与巨型基建时绕不开的警世寓言。
HN 评论精选
成本、地缘和生态风险远超收益，中央规划式巨型工程在现实社会中不可行。
我十几岁时曾对这个项目非常兴奋——另一个让我兴奋的是只在马尔马拉海/黑海（伊斯坦布尔）修一座“简单”的大坝。然而，任何成年人现在都能看出，财务影响远超潜在收益。除了对南欧沿海社区的明显影响，你还得应对北非和土耳其的不稳定政权以及地缘政治问题；为了土地和资源，战争曾因比这重要得多的事情爆发。生态影响更是无法估算，还有移民等看似次要的问题。总之，一位德国科学家的中央规划确实有创意加分，但我们不是要改造火星，而是在地球人口稠密、海岸文明延续了四千年的地区动土。
TadaScientist查看英文原文
I was very excited about this project when I was a teenager - another was a "simple" dam just at Marmara/Black sea / Istanbul. However, as any adult can see the financial impact vastly supersedes the potential benefits. Besides the obvious impact to the local seaside communities in Southern Europe, you would have to deal with unstable regimes in northern Africa and Turkey and the geopolitical side of things. Wars have been fought for much less important things than land and resources. Moreover the ecological effects would be impossible to calculate. There are other seemingly less important issues such as immigration. So, in all, ok - the central planning from a German scientist does get some creativity points, but we are not in Mars, trying to terraform it; we are in a heavily populated part of Earth which has civilisations at its shores for the last 4000 years.
质疑海平面、盐度、生态和溃坝风险，认为需要严肃的工程与安全分析。
水并不会凭空消失——这会带来多少全球海平面上升？盐不会蒸发，这会怎样影响地中海盐度？对野生动物有何影响？地中海每个沿海城市都将不再沿海，我不知道居民会作何感想。横跨直布罗陀海峡的大坝会是“单点故障”之母；一旦因人为失误、自然灾害、恐怖主义或战争而溃坝，恐怕会杀死数百万人甚至上千万。这种风险如何应对？这些只是我临时想到的，有没有人做过严肃分析？读读这些担忧会如何发展会很有意思！
tyho查看英文原文
The water wouldn't just disappear though, how much global sea level rise would this cause? The salt would not evaporate, how much would this affect the salinity of the Med? What would be the impact on wildlife? Every costal city in the Med would no longer be a costal city. I wonder how the population would feel about that. The dam across the Gibraltar strait would be the mother of all single points of failure and a breach, through human error, natural disaster, terrorism or war would presumably kill millions if not tens of millions. How would that risk be addressed? This is just off the top of my head, has there been any serious analysis of these concerns? It would be interesting to read about how they would play out!
缩小地中海可能减少蒸散、让南欧和北非更干旱，代价无法接受。
请原谅我如果说错了，但地中海缩小难道不会减少（可能大幅减少）蒸散量，从而使南欧和北非气候变干吗？我无法想象多少能源和滨水地产能抵得上这个代价。干旱会引发战争。正如他们所说，我们的生存依赖于六英寸表土和下雨这件事。我支持下雨。
scythe查看英文原文
Forgive me if I’m mistaken, but wouldn’t shrinking the Mediterranean decrease (possibly a lot) the amount of evapotranspiration, drying out the climate of Southern Europe and North Africa? I can’t imagine how any amount of energy and waterfront property justifies this. Drought causes war. As they say, we owe our existence to a six-inch layer of topsoil and the fact it rains. I am in favor of rain.
该运动混合了泛欧理想与殖民/种族偏见，今天欧盟边界和移民待遇仍有回声。
Atlantropa 运动在几十年里有几个不变特征：……泛欧洲情绪，把项目视为团结饱受战争蹂躏的欧洲的方式；对非洲持白人中心（甚至种族主义）的态度……让我感兴趣的是，这样一种积极情绪（泛欧洲主义）如何能毫无障碍地与非常消极的情绪（白人至上主义）结合在一起。我不确定我们能轻易打“那是不同时代”这张牌。如今欧盟有开放边界，所以泛欧洲主义那部分其实相当成功。结果是欧盟外部边界变得铁硬，因为一旦你到了西班牙或意大利，你就到了大部分欧洲。我们对待试图穿越的非洲人像对待动物——诚然不是出于白人至上主义，但效果一样。
skrebbel查看英文原文
The Atlantropa movement, through its several decades, was characterised by four constants: - ... - Pan-European sentiment, seeing the project as a way to unite a war-torn Europe; - White-centric superiority (and even racist) attitudes to Africa - ... It interests me how such a positive sentiment (Pan-Europanism) can be combined with a very negative sentiment (white supremacism) without any trouble. I'm not sure we can play the "they were different times" card so easily. Currently, the EU has open borders, so the Pan-Europanism part worked out quite well, actually. As a consequence, the outer borders of the EU have become rock hard, because once you made it to Spain or Italy, you made it to most of Europe. We treat Africans who try to make it across like animals - not out of some white supremacist sense, admittedly, but the effect is the same.
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