编程与软件工程yosefk.com编辑精选
我的 Forth 与栈机器经历
Yosefk - My history with Forth & stack machines
2010 — 2024，它一次次回到首页
黑点是上首页（≥ 50 分）的那次投稿，空心点是没冲上去的投稿，点越大分数越高。
导读
作者以亲身经历回顾了使用 Forth 语言和栈式机器的历程：既赞叹其简洁优雅、代码量小、可自举的优点，也坦率指出栈操作在实际编程中的痛苦，以及 Forth 社区文化中的问题。文章文笔犀利幽默，是关于栈式语言优劣的经典反思。
为什么经久不衰：它对 Forth 的优缺点做了罕见地坦诚且文笔出色的第一手分析，十几年来反复被推荐，至今仍是了解栈式语言最值得一读的文章。
HN 评论精选
Forth 优雅迷人但栈操作在实际编程中过于痛苦，栈语言必须支持局部变量
这是一篇精彩的文章，任何对栈式语言感兴趣的人都该读。Forth 是我第一个爱上的语言：读《Starting Forth》时被它的优雅和语言自我修改的便利震撼。但当我真想用它做点有用的事时，却处处碰壁——典型问题是栈操作对大多数任务来说太难了，即使可行，也比直接写代数表达式更费劲。栈适合某些问题，但求任意代数表达式不在其列。所以后来我自己设计栈语言时，第一条规则永远是：支持局部变量。
pauldirac137查看英文原文
I feel a rant coming on... This is a _fantastic_ article which should be read by anyone interested in stack languages. Though it wasn't my first programming language, Forth was certainly the first programming language I loved. I read Starting Forth and was blown away by the elegance of the language and by how easily you could get the language to modify itself. It also started a fascination with stack languages that persists to this day. However, when I tried to actually do anything useful with Forth, I kept banging my head against a wall. The typical problem is that stack juggling is just too hard for most problems, and even when it isn't, it's more work than just writing down an algebraic expression would be. Stacks work well for some problems, but evaluating arbitrary algebraic expressions isn't one. Why would I want to do that? asks the Forth zealot. Because I do! Because I don't want to have to worry that I won't be able to do that easily in the future when I do need to. So even though I've designed my own Forths and other stack languages since then, rule #1 is always: support local variables. Even if I don't need them, I want them. If you don't believe me, translate this problem into Forth or some other stack language in a clear, intuitive way without using local variables: # python code to compute solutions of a**2*x + b*x + c == 0: def solve_quadratic_equation(a, b, c): # assume a >=0, no complex roots d = math.sqrt(b * b - 4.0 * a * c) return ((-b - d) / (2.0 * a), (-b + d) / (2.0 * a)) Three lines of code, completely transparent. Now see this thread: http://osdir.com/ml/lang.concatenative/2005-01/msg00023.html. You'll see how difficult this is to do without local variables in a stack language. The reason is easy to spot: you are using values in a pretty random-access way, not in a streamed way. This is common in algebraic equations. And it's not stack-friendly. Another thing I hate about pure Forth is that floating-point values, if they exist at all (they often don't) are put on a different stack, which means you have to duplicate all the operators with different names (I call this "operator underloading") and this can lead to hilariously obscure bugs because the two stacks are independent. Basically, the attitude that the hard-core Forthers have reminds me of analogous statements that have been made about communism, or moonieism or whatever extreme -ism is promoted as the cure to all problems: if you are having problems, it's because you haven't gone far enough down the road yet. Only by committing 1000% to the approach will you ever get anything done. This is pure cult behavior. And yet: Forth does have a valid and useful niche, in embedded systems, and it is a fascinating language, one well worth studying. But I don't think it's a coincidence that none of the software that people use everyday (other than very low-level stuff like e.g. the boot proms) on their computers is written in Forth. Here's a challenge: I would really love to see someone write a full-featured web browser (at the level of a Firefox, Chrome or Safari) in Forth. You can do that in C, C++, Java, Python, and probably in dozens of other languages I could name. The beauty of this problem is that you can't go and bitch that you shouldn't have to support something like (say) CSS or embedded video because you think it's unnecessary; it's part of the problem domain and you don't get to complain about it. I think that any web browser that anyone attempted to write in Forth (without local variables, naturally!) would never get finished. But maybe I'm wrong, and I just haven't reached Forthlightenment yet. If so, prove me wrong.
好奇 Chuck Moore 如何用极简工具完成真实的芯片设计
我一直对 Chuck Moore 的 VLSI 设计工具很着迷。他是如何用功能如此有限的工具设计出能用的芯片的？复杂仿真靠手工做吗？逐个摆放晶体管不会很困难吗？
impeachgod查看英文原文
I've always been fascinated with Chuck Moore's VLSI design tools. How does he manage to design working VLSI chips with such limited functionality? Does he do complex simulation by hand? Wouldn't it get hard laying out each individual transistor?
推荐现代栈式语言 Factor 作为延伸阅读
如果你喜欢这篇文章，可以了解一下 Factor 语言。
jacquesm查看英文原文
If you liked this look in to 'factor'.
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